Cecilia Cheung Attacks Nicholas Tse: “Stop Pretending to Be a Good Man!”
Since the outbreak of Cecilia Cheung (張栢芝) and Nicholas Tse’s (謝霆鋒) divorce crisis, the public has been shocked. Cecilia faced allegations that she was greedy for money, domineering, unreasonably provoking arguments, and threatening her husband with her two sons, Lucas and Quintus. Due to her concern for her sons, Cecilia remained silent despite the accusations. However, Cecilia could no longer tolerate her husband, Nic. After 24-days of silence, Cecilia finally stepped out to reveal her husband’s “true colors!”
Cecilia claimed that Nic fed the paparazzi the inside scoop regarding their marriage crisis, building a negative image for her and pushing their marriage to its current state. During the interview, Cecilia blasted that there was no longer a need for Nic to pretend to be “a good man, good husband, or good father!” Perhaps it was apparent that Cecilia and Nic’s marriage has reached a foregone conclusion, without any room for remedy. Regarded as a golden couple by the public, Cecilia and Nic’s fairytale marriage will quickly become history.
Accompanied by her younger brother, Ronnie Cheung (張豪龍), and her manager on a work assignment in Germany, Cecilia accepted an interview with Orientaldaily via a long-distance telephone call yesterday. Cecilia indicated that she wished to break her former silence to clear recent false rumors. As to whether she and Nic will divorce, Cecilia noted that the matter will be decided later. Currently, Cecilia was interested in only revealing the facts.
On May 30th, radio host, Eileen Cha (查小欣), who was also Nic’s mother, Deborah’s Dik’s (狄波拉) good friend, revealed that Cecilia and Nic were in a marriage crisis. Eileen criticized Cecilia in “planning to suck dry Nic’s $500 million (HKD) net worth.” Eileen revealed that Cecilia and Nic frequently argued. Since Cecilia and Deborah’s in-law relationship was unstable, the public speculated that Deborah fed Eileen the inside gossip, pushing Cecilia to rock-bottom levels. However, Cecilia overturned the rumors and stated that Nic was the person who truly leaked the gossip!
Reporter: Why do you think Nicholas Tse leaked the inside scoop?
Cecilia (in a calm tone): I have been married to Nic for 5 years and knew him from 18-years-old to 31-years-old. How would I not know what kind of person he is?! He often pretends to be cool; you can see him frequently wearing sunglasses. I once asked him why he always wears sunglasses. He said that when he wore sunglasses, no one would be able to tell whether he was telling the truth or lying. We should really applaud him for winning the Hong Kong Film Award Best Actor Award!
Reporter: Aside from knowing Nic for 13 years, being married to him for 5 years, and possessing a good understanding of him, are there any real reasons why you assert that Nicholas leaked the inside scoop [regarding your marriage situation]?
From her initial calm tone, Cecilia grew a little agitated. Cecilia said: Many things are only known between Nic and myself, in which a third party would not have known. Normally, Nic does not have a good relationship with his mother, Deborah. When Nic received the HKFA Best Actor Award and did not thank Deborah onstage, she complained to Eileen Cha on the second day. Since then, Deborah has not been in contact with us and has not been to our house. Deborah did not know the rent amount I paid when I moved to Parkview Towers. How come Eileen Cha was able to reveal this on her radio program? It was obvious as to who revealed the inside scoop. I can only feel contempt towards [Nic in] ‘borrowing a knife to commit murder’ and not assisting while two women [Deborah and Cecilia] were besieged. Why not come forward to say things directly instead of being so sneaky?
Cannot Find Nicholas Tse for Several Months
Reporter: It has been a over a month since Eileen Cha revealed the marriage crisis on her radio program. Since then, numerous negative rumors circulated. Why did you not come forth to explain?
Cecilia noted in a helpless tone: I tolerated [the allegations] due to the family. I did not want my sons to grow up in a broken and single-parent family. However, [Nic] is heartless! Up until last night before my flight, he continued to feed the media the inside scoop. I could no longer tolerate it any longer! I felt it was time to come forth to talk!
Reporter: Have you been in contact with Nic?
Cecilia minced her words: I have not been able to find him over the last few months. Prior to boarding my flight, I used a restricted number [which did not show up in Caller ID] to call Nic’s cousin (who was also Nic’s personal assistant). I told him that if his boss continued to feed tips to the paparazzi, I cannot tolerate it any longer! Many things are only known between Nic and I. Since he was acting this way, I can only reveal his true self and tell others what type of person Nicholas Tse truly was. There was no need to pretend to be a good man and a good father!
“He Rarely Pays Attention to the Children”
Reporter: In your mind, how is Nic as a father?
Cecilia: He rarely pays attention to our two sons. He pretends that the children are transparent and did not pay attention to them. He wanted me to have children to bind me. He doesn’t even like children!
Reporter: When you told Nic’s cousin that you can no longer tolerate the situation and intend to unmask Nic, how did Nic react?
Cecilia said in an upset tone: Next to the phone, Nic said, ‘Go ahead and talk [expletive] about me! I laid it out for so long and made your image plummet. Let’s see who they will believe!”
Reporter: Did this statement make you unable to withstand the situation any longer?
Cecilia said angrily: Yes! Due to this statement, I decided not to remain silent and tolerate the situation quietly. I had to come forth to talk!
“He Does Not Want Me to Split the Assets”
Reporter: Why did Nic have to attack you?
Cecilia: He did not want me to split the assets. He made my image as money-hungry. However, this was far from the truth. I don’t need to rely on him! As for money, I will spend more money if I had more and spend less money if I had less. It’s not as if I did not have money now. It’s okay if I did not work in the entertainment industry either!
Reporter: The situation has advanced to this stage; did you decide on divorce already?
Cecilia said helplessly: I suffered in silence for so long because of the family and my two sons. As to whether we divorce or not, we will decide later. At this moment, I just want to reveal the true face of Nicholas Tse.
Source: Orientaldaily
Jayne: Cecilia admitted that she has been trying to contact Nic for the last month without success. He never answered her calls until last night. Cecilia likely harbored some hope that their marriage may be salvaged if she had remained silent since May 30th. However, after hearing Nic’s allegedly heated taunt over the phone, she grew angry and hopes of reconcilation crashed.
Cecilia sounds extremely angry in the interview, yet she did not take the opportunity to deny the worst allegations such as trying to control her husband through financial control, transfer of property ownership titles to her name, threatening Nic with their two sons, or making former suicide threats. Did such actions in fact occur? She seemed very hurt by the recent rumors and her statements were mainly revolved on why she thinks Nicholas Tse may have betrayed her.
From this interview, Cecilia revealed that Nic asked her to have children to “bind” her. Having children should be a mutual decision. At the same time, I understand that becoming a parent means less freedom and as young children are very dependent on adult care, it can feel very binding and parents can resent that. Perhaps Nic did try to ignore his children at home and Cecilia felt resentment that she cared for the children more. They are both normal defensive mechanisms for new parents in dealing with additional responsibilities and less freedom compared to the days before the kids.
Since May 30th, Cecilia and Nic have not been in contact with each other. Through past news reports that Nic loves to play video games and hide in his hotel room in Malaysia and not come out despite filming breaks in “The Viral Factor,” he appears to like to avoid confrontations and did not want talk about problems. The typical male reaction is to withdraw in tense marital situations. On the other hand, Cecilia is more confrontational and was likely desperate to talk to Nic, uncertain as to what was running through his mind. Cecilia’s initial desperation may have turned to her current anger, where she was finally willing to let go of the marriage.
The couple’s communication has been broken since a month ago. They even appear to talk to each other only through the press, such as Cecilia’s angry interview and Nic’s public statement thanking her for her sacrifices over the last 5 years.
They looked so happy at the film awards, and now look divorce…
If they’re so unhappy, they should just divorce already. Their news is getting depressing for the audience. Either they should just reconcile or divorce and end it there. No need to come out and backlash at each other because at this point people don’t know whom to believe anymore.
Aly,
Through both Cecilia and Nic’s handling of the situation, they don’t know how to handle marital arguments, allowing this incident to blow up into much bigger proportions. They don’t make decisions jointly. Nic makes decisions on his own and dwells in perhaps quiet anger. Cecilia’s rage is more up-front and her communication style explosive. She is also ready to believe in the worst side of her husband, that he is capable of betraying her before the public.
I think they both have problems and don’t know how to solve and handle their problems which may be one the main reasons why their marriage is on the rocks now. I have a feeling that there is no more hope for reconcilation. But regardless of what happens, I hope that their kids will be well cared for.
Jayne,
Your added comments at the end (in green) wisely summed it up.
One (Nic) puts on a cool front, avoids confrontation and broods in silent anger. Acting macho does not help any problem resolve itself. The other (Cecilia) is more transparent, emotional and impulsively explosive. She doesn’t know how to penetrate his wall, so she threatens to try and get some reaction from him.
What they need is COMMUNICATION, with a calm NEUTRAL middle party present. To listen to each other’s side, without reacting. Their coping styles to problems are so different, they need to reach a compromise that works.
Their interactions and reactions are actually a common negative marital pattern and they should really go to see a marriage counsellor to work out issues instead.
They’re BOTH immature, and lack wisdom. Nic tries to act like he’s above it all, but seems like he’s just avoiding looking at problems in the face. That’s frustrating for Cecilia and anyone in his life.
By airing all their issues in public for everyone to witness, it’s just escalates the bad situation between them. People and strangers who shouldn’t interfere are judging and adding pepper and salt to the fire.
I read in another forum that Nic’s playing World of Warcraft. Could be too addicted liao until he neglected wife and children. The article is dated 2007 though.
Kidd,
Nic comes across as avoiding problems through the enjoyment of playing video games. In the heat of an agrument, which woman wants to be ignored? If she feels that she gave birth to the kids, care more for the kids, while husband doesn’t care for kids and may not necessarily appreciate her efforts and “avoid responsibilities” while home? This is universal problem between marriage partners, especially when there are young children and both partners feel overly stressed.
I also have friends’ husbands who are addicted to video games, including Warcraft, and would stay up to play such games until 2 or 3 AM in the morning, even on a work day.
My friend’s husband loves playing games too but he takes care of their son when he can. However, my friend does most of the work since she is a stay at home mom. But most people don’t have that luxury these days. You can still be a good father if you love playing games. However, just don’t let it get out of hand.
This game is quite interesting. I like Age of Empires more
Someone in asianfanatics also mentioned what Jayne has pointed out. Cecilia blasted Nic for releasing info to the public, but, she didn’t deny any of the allegations.
Hey, maybe she is indirectly admitting that the allegations are true and is really mad at Nic for letting everyone know?? Who knows??
Is nothing wrong to control the husband, that is what every woman does. After married the man still can go play, play outside but women have to behave and contribute fully to the husband and family. Furthermore so handsome husband sure many bees and flies approached, so the only solution is to suck dry financially so all the flies will disperse. Nic looks very mysterious and unpredictable, suffer to be his wife, I think. So girls don’t look for handsome hubby not reliable!!!
@crysty, i feel so sorry for you. i don’t mean to be mean. but you sound really insecure. not every man is like that and not every woman is like that. but if it makes you feel better, there are a lot of ugly men, so lucky you! lol
Coincidentally, I was reading a philosophical text by Plato (always eager to explore the deeper meaning of life) on the all-consuming nature of love.
In human nature, there possesses a habit to dominate and possess in extremity for certain interests, such as gluttony for a person who loves to consume too much food. In love, it was also common for a person to always want her lover by her side, to constantly feel being in “love,” to subconsciously take away his freedom and his time from other things, to dominate him, to become the most important person in his life. To perhaps cut off his family, friends, and other people from their circle (intentionally or unintentionally) so that the lovers can have more time together.
This kind of passionate love in extremity is all-consuming and when the relationship is over, the fury that unfurls is just as extreme.
I think in relationships, it is common for one person to be more clingy and need to feel more “in love.” Perhaps more women may tend to possess such traits, at the same time causing a relentless conflict with their male partner, who while being squeezed, desires freedom and increasing conficts result.
@jayne, i think this is overthinking, but i do understand that popular thought you are mentioning.
that applies to BOTH men and women.
i can say…from an evolutionary standpoint, men feels the natural urge to act on reproducing (not necessary to reproduce, but the ACT of it). women feel the need to feel complete which is to fulfill their body’s potential, which is to give birth.
we’ve been taught as women to to look at things a certain way for thousands of years but that is changing. and it’s changing a bit by bit ever since we got the right to vote and our liberation movement and technology using donated sperms to reproduce.
though socially, somehow a part of the women, because of pop culture, has taken a step back in taking charge. men’s fear of the ‘modern woman’ has made some women act dumb for relationships. they give up a huge potential of themselves for a man in the hopes that he would stay.
culturally, specifically in this case lets just talk about china. very conservative. narrow minded. and as you can see with Crysty’s comment, that is what the chinese media made her believe.
we shouldn’t have to worry about marrying a certain age. we should be concerned with marrying the right one at the right time. we shouldn’t feel the need to control. we need to control ourselves instead. we shouldn’t blame. we should take responsibilities, because only then, we can believe we have the power to change.
I don’t want to get religious or philosophical here but this is what i heard from Master Chin Kung. When we in love we don’t see each other shortcomings or flaws. However, when we been together for a long time and that passion dies out, we begin to see the flaws of each other. We grow less tolerance and eventually go seperate ways. If we were to see each other in good lights and don’t see the faults in each other, marriage will definitely last a lifetime. So true!
Darren,
Thanks for sharing your wise input. I completely agree! Tolerance is a virtue.
Thanks for the great insight Darren. THat is so very true and I have always believed that no matter how much you love anyone that you have to be able to know their good and bad side. But the thing is that you have to learn how to accept the bad traits as well since who doesn’t have flaws?? You also need to be tolerant and be able to solve problems. Love is important in a marriage/relationship, but it is not the only thing you should have. You need to be tolerant, compatible, trusting,etc.. just so many things to make a marriage last a lifetime…
I also want to add that is why I think it is important to get to know a person for at least some amount of time before marrying them. Some people just “fall in love” and just have shot gun weddings and then find out that they are not compatible. I think that may be why those shot gun weddings just don’t work out. It is strange how the dating time for couples these days is a lot shorter than it was in the past. I used to think that you had to date for at least 5-6 years before you think about marriage, but I guess you don’t need to anymore.It also varies since some only date for 5-6 months or less then a year but still get married and are happy, while there are others that date for 10+ years and end up breaking up. I guess it just varies…
Always remember this ” If you always look at the bad side of a person which may be 1% you will never see the good side which may be 99%.
@Yearofsnake,
What you said is true to some extent and sadly that is what a lot of people do. They focus on just 1 bad trait of a person and completely ignore all of the good traits of a person. We all just have to realize that no one is perfect including ourselves. But you still have to know the good and bad of a person. You appreciate the good traits and try to accept the bad traits…
when the passion dies out that’s just called the honeymoon phase being over. If you truly loved them from the beginning it shouldn’t have been a problem, but unfortunately it was the second head that is thinking most of the time for men.
I sort of agree with you to some extent EkinFan. However, I think that even IF you truly love someone, sometimes even that is not enough because besides love in a relationship, you must have many other traits in order for the marriage to last.
That is so true. I don’t think Cecilia is blind to Nic’s faults but has been tolerating (like most women do in marriage.
But when men’s other little head gets tired – that’s when husbands also get tired and bored about their wife.
And when the woman is no longer in favor (that is her husband no longer desires her, or gets excited over her) is when he starts nit-picking at all her faults (faults that he probably put up with all this time).
It’s just that when someone no longer likes you … everything you do is bad.
Like when you romantically think someone is cool … even when he spits on the street (bheh) … it might be interpreted as a macho “MAN” kind of thing to do! So cool.
@Sambal,
Well, Cecilia is no angel herself and flaws and faults just like Nic does. Everyone has flaws and faults, however, the most important thing is are you willing to accept those flaws and work things out when there is a crisis?? I remember once someone said on a talk show that one of the key elements to a long and lasting marriage is to be able to resolve conflicts. I think that is so true… But then again, even if a marriage lasts, is it happy is another thing…
This is very true. I read this from the “Love Dare”
A parasite is anything that latches onto you or your partner and sucks the life out of your marriage. They’re usually in the form of addictions like gambling, drugs, pornography, or video games. They promise pleasure but they grow like a disease…and consume more and more of your thoughts, time and money. They steal away your loyalty and heart from those you love. If you love your wife. You must destroy any addiction that has your heart. If you don’t, it’ll destroy you.
This is also really true with most married couples.
When a man is trying to win a heart of a woman, he studies her. He learns her likes and dislikes, habits and hobbies. But after he wins her heart and marrys her. He often stops learning about her. If the amount he studies her before marry her was equals to a HS degree. He should continue to learn about her until he gains a college degree, a master degree and ultametly a Dr degree. It is a life long journey that draws his heart ever closer to hers.
“Dare Love”
Married couples with conflicts should def’ read this book.
When you marry someone, you don’t just stop there. After marrying them, you need to continue to learn about them and grow with them. THe person that you marry at first will not necessarily be the same person that you are with 30 years down the line. Which is why it is always important to continue to keep the bond growing…
@rei,
I googled the book. And only “The Love Dare” came up. Are you show the book is called “Dare Love” or did I make a mistake?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Love_Dare
When a past lover hurts Nic, he can get vicious on them. I was looking at a video clip of Nic singing at a TVB music award, and he intentionally sat next to Edison and Cecilia to publicly humiliate Faye.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoGX4cs06lI
Look at Faye’s reaction. She looks embarrassed. I could be overly sensitive about Nic, but that’s the vibe he sends off to me.
I always thought that Nic was using Faye for a lot of things but thanks for posting this..another eye opener..
btw I think Nic is the one who is humiliated now all his own doing..I’ve always thought Faye was very classy as she did not come out to say any bad things about her past lovers/ e.g. that ex husband of hers who actually issued statements together with his then mistress.
i think its the camera pointing at her face all the time that makes her embarassed….but ya i see what your saying.
its kinda sad to see how time flies…and how young and innocent they look…so carefree it seems.
Somehow, I have some doubts about this interview unless there is an audio recording of it… I heard that Oriental Daily is not a reliable source.
That picture of Cecilia really scared me.. She looks dazed..
“He wanted me to have children to bind me.”
As far as I can remember, it’s Cecilia herself who always profess in public that she wants more children. Don’t tell me that all the time, it’s Nic who forced her to say so.
i think both parties just need to talk it out face to face, a real confrontation and have a clean divorce if they still care about their kids, and if they dont want to divorce than dont, because that will even be better for the kids, but hopefully they will have this settle soon.
At this point, I do wonder if it will be better to stay together or divorce?? If they stay together there is a chance that this cycle will repeat itself and cause even more damage. BUt if they divorce, will their family just fall apart?? So many questions that only time can tell….
I am really tired of hearing news about this couple. Is this a way of saying you trying to protecting your kids. The mother trashes the father back and forth so on….
It’s her fault for take it everything for grant when married to him. Now everything is falling apart then tell the press that he is a bad man…Common you are not kid…Others will have sympathy with you if you don’t open your mouth and bad mouth your soon to be ex-husband….
I hate people who having kids and if something wrong in the married and relationship then blame others by saying having kids are to bind her to him. What a selfish and self center woman. Grow up and eat your own word…You are the one asking for divorce now he gives you your wish so just shut up and accept it….
If you are a good mother like you always said everything you do is to protect your kids. Then at this time instead of getting interview with the magazine you should stay home and focus on your kids especially your oldest son. He is at an age he can understand everything surrounding him. If she does that public may look at her differently.
i rmb reading some fortune tellings prediction of their relationship a long time ago…and they said they WILL get a divorce. I thought it was the Edison pictures that will cause the break up….but was surprised that nic said nothing will tear them apart… Its sad. I was hoping this is the couple that can prove that YOUNG couples can survive a marriage for life.
That famous fortune teller, Peter So, mentioned sometime last year(or was it early this year?) that Nic and Ceci will be facing marital troubles probably separation this year. What a coincidence! Anyway, they’re just too different in terms of personality!
I think that it may be just a coincidence since who really knows if anything that those fortune tellers ever say is 100% accurate.
I remember that too. Right after their ‘secret’ marriage was revealed
Don’t remember who it was or they were
Edisongate was unable to break up the couple, but, video game did. Such irony.
Whatever it is Edison still sucks
True!
Maybe both is reason, just that Ceci can’t mention of EDC
Kidd,
“Edisongate was unable to break up the couple, but, video game did. Such irony.”
Edisongate happened in 2008, still early in Nic and Cecilia’s marriage and when Lucas was just born. Due to his son just born, I’m sure Nic took that into account. If Edisongate occurred in 2011 amidst all these marital arguments, Nic’s reactions may have been very different.
When Cecilia complained that Nic was spending too much time on video games, she was really saying he didn’t care to pay more attention to herself and the kids.
The couple has a lot of money to hire all the nannies and maids to help out with physical chores and watch children so they can go out on dates more. That already makes a big difference in reducing the physical responsibilities. Cecilia is obviously crying out for more signs of caring and love on Nic’s side.
I agree about Fox’s assessment. On several occasions when the press photographed the family together, Cecilia is always wearing the baby carrier to hold Quintus around. Shouldn’t Nic help carry Quintus as he must be heavy. Or use a stroller, which makes it a lot easier on both people’s arms.
I read a comment of Ceci’s makeup artist today that even with nannies, Ceci still takes care for the kids.
I also want to add that I don’t see many pix of Nic and the kids. Most of the time, I see Ceci and Lucas, Ceci and 2 kids. I don’t recall any chance I saw Nic with the kids alone.
And I think Nic seems to care for Lucas more than Quintus. Haven’t seen him with Quintus on arms.
Just because we don’t see it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen..
@Fox and there are also Nic fans saying Ceci is putting on a show )= once again sad news
@HTS: It might happen but think of this: Even to public he dun act like he is a warm father, how he’ll react at home where there is no ppl can see him?
Bonus, story of 2 ppl, only these 2 ppl know the best.
@ Kwan: What do you mean by putting on a show? Mean Ceci acts victim, rite?
@Fox the part where Ceci asks Rick (make up friend) to take care of L+Q and call every hour
Oic. I thought you were talking about the interview on Oriental of Ceci. Thank Kwan.
the interview is somewhat a show too… just sad… humans are just… sad
Cecilia and Nic are sadly childish. Waging marriage war in public eyes.
nic should not avoid cecelia..they should sort out their problems in private to divocie or not…why avoid talking about it
I think both of them are at faults. Agree with you guys above that Cecilia didn’t deny any allegations. While Nicholas take the easy way of escaping and let Cecilia bear all the brunt. They are childish
There are better ways for them to approach their situation without letting their dirty laundries fly to the puclic.
Well, I assume that some part Ceci said is right. When I look back to the family pix of Ceci and Nic, all the time Ceci is with the kids and Nic is alone. He doesn’t seem to close to the kids.
However, a marriage isn’t a battle where ppl must win or lose. Who is right, who is wrong, or both is, isn’t important.
If they can’t be a family anymore, they can do some better thing than tell everything directly or indirectly on newspaper. Do they think how Lucas will be said when he is out of the house. “Look, the parents of this guy hate each other. The dad is hypocrite, the mom is greedy.”
I dont think she is greedy, she just wanna control him. I can say that she love him, more than he love her. If not she will not bear his children. So painful and need lots of courage. And i noticed that only ceci visit nic but never heard that he visit her leh? I believed no mother will hurt their own children, even the tiger and lion wont do so.
Another me?
Jayne, if you delete these nonsense comments of fake usernames, delete this one, too :P.
I mean the “Another me?”. I just want to tease the one who used fake usernames, so delete them, delete my messages about this, too.
Fox,
LOL I caught the spam messages just in time. I’ll leave your msgs to add to your comment count. 🙂 When user login is implemented, we won’t have this problem where people pretend to be others.
Thank you for this, but it seems like cheat :P. BTW, can you check why I can’t reply to my own comment. You can see, it turned to 3 posts. Kinda weird. Just today. Before I dun see this problem.
Aiyoh, now it’s even happened when I reply to you. Wat’s wrong?
what happens behind the closed door of the bedroom should best be left there.Neither should Nic nor Ceceilia should lambast each otr in public nor to the press. Either reconcile or go for divorce. No need to giv press statements to garner sympathy. u dont owe the public any explanations.
Very well said and I heartily agree with every word. This is getting a little boring now. Either reconcile which I doubt or divorce and end the misery and start afresh with new people.
why don’t you people see how fake Nicholes tse, and his parent is.even as angry as Cecillia spoke, that’s how she telling the truth. Cecillia you will be better without him, you have two beautiful son, raise them well and love them,you don’t have to stay married to survive.
I totally agreed with u!!
[…] herself spoke up against Nic accusing him of being a bad man and father. Nic’s camp retaliated by releasing photos of him playing with Lucas while Ceci played with […]